Ireland in the EU: In conversation with Noelle O’Connell

00:00:32:20 Mary McCaughey: Hello and welcome to this edition of Eurofound Talks. This time, Eurofound Talks Europe is a little different from our regular episodes because we're going to be talking about Ireland and the EU. As you know, Ireland's Presidency of the Council of the European Union is now underway. It started in July and will end in December.

00:00:58:00 Mary McCaughey: Between now and the end of the year, Ireland will take the lead in Council sessions, build consensus around negotiating tables, and represent the Council in its relations with the other EU institutions. It is a pivotal role and an important one for any Member State. It is a moment when the spotlight shines across Europe, and indeed on the global stage, on the Member State holding the Presidency for that six-month period.

00:01:29:21 Mary McCaughey: It should be noted that Ireland, one of the early Member States of the European Community, has made a considerable contribution to the European project over many years. You can hear many Irish voices across the EU institutions. We have Seamus Boland, recently elected President of the European Economic and Social Committee, and Tony Murphy, President of the European Court of Auditors. You may remember Catherine Day, former Secretary-General of the European Commission. We have Pat Cox, former President of the European Parliament, and David O'Sullivan, currently serving as the EU's sanctions envoy. We also had Mairead McGuinness in both the European Parliament and the European Commission, and our current Commissioner, Michael McGrath, who has also visited Eurofound and spoken with us in this studio.

00:01:58:28 Mary McCaughey: We also have several EU agencies located across the European Union. There are around 50 agencies specialising in a wide range of policy areas, from pharmaceuticals and food safety to satellites and strategic technologies. And, of course, we see many Irish directors taking up leadership posts within these agencies.

00:02:26:25 Mary McCaughey: Irish people operate across all levels of the EU system and have done so for the last 50 years. They continue to make an important contribution to the European project, both inside and outside the institutions. Against that background, I am very pleased to welcome Noelle O'Connell today. Who is Noelle O'Connell, you might ask?

00:02:54:18 Mary McCaughey: Civil society is an increasingly important player in the European project. The voices of people working at the coalface of business and society are becoming ever more influential. The recent Conference on the Future of Europe was a good reflection of the growing significance of civil society in shaping the EU agenda. We felt this was a good moment to reach out to an Irish voice for insights into where Ireland stands in the EU and what the future may hold. No better person to do that than Noelle. Noelle is the former CEO of European Movement Ireland and is currently Vice-President of European Movement International.

00:03:41:00 Mary McCaughey: In this context, she has worked in the European arena for nearly 20 years and has direct experience of several Irish Presidencies over that period. So, Noelle, we're very happy to have you with us today.

 00:04:19:20 Noelle O'Connell: Thanks, Mary. Delighted to be back here at Eurofound and speaking with you once more.

00:04:23:00 Mary McCaughey: Excellent. Noelle, you served as CEO of European Movement Ireland for 14 years and are currently Vice-President of European Movement International. That period spans the Troika years, the Fiscal Stability Treaty referendum, the 2013 Irish Presidency, Brexit, multiple European Parliament elections, and a number of other critical moments. Maybe talk us through your role during that time and what you've observed about Ireland's place within the European Union.

00:05:02:21 Noelle O'Connell: Thanks, Mary, and it's great to join you here on Eurofound Talks. I think it's a fantastic podcast with a strong listenership, and it serves an important role in explaining the EU through the many different topics that Eurofound works on.

00:05:20:25 Mary McCaughey: Thank you. That's a great start, Noelle.

00:05:22:12 Noelle O'Connell: Thank you. And I wasn't bribed to say it. But genuinely, the work Eurofound does is extremely important. By way of background, my own European journey began studying Languages and European Studies at University College Cork. I was fortunate, as many people have been, to spend a year abroad through Erasmus. I studied at the Université Jean Moulin in Lyon, France, which was probably one of the best years of my life. It was a fantastic experience that gave me the opportunity to travel, learn and experience Europe firsthand.

00:06:12:03 Noelle O'Connell: I later completed a Master's degree in International and European Politics at the University of Edinburgh, in Scotland, pre-Brexit, I should add. For me, the European dimension was present in both my academic and personal life before it became a professional one. I remember studying for final exams in UCC and reading about the work of the Irish Council of the European Movement. As a student, I was inspired by the visionaries who helped bring Ireland into its European home and who campaigned during the 1972 referendum on membership. That contribution to strengthening the relationship between Ireland and Europe had a profound effect on me.

00:07:12:00 Noelle O'Connell: After gaining experience in business development, public affairs, government relations and communications across several sectors, I eventually took what became my longest role, almost 15 years as CEO of European Movement Ireland. No two days were ever the same.

00:08:09:03 Noelle O'Connell: I genuinely had a front-row seat to every major turning point in Ireland's modern relationship with the EU. When I took over in 2011, the Troika was in town. In 2012, we had the Fiscal Stability Treaty referendum, Ireland's ninth EU referendum. Then, in 2013, we moved straight into the Irish Presidency of the Council of the European Union.

00:08:27:29 Mary McCaughey: Quite a baptism.

00:08:30:14 Noelle O'Connell: It certainly was. A baptism of fire. Trying to advocate for a pro-European message when the country was going through such a difficult period was not easy. Equally, representing Ireland in pan-European civil society forums was challenging because Ireland's reputation at that moment was under pressure.

00:08:56:07 Mary McCaughey: A little bit strained.

00:08:58:25 Noelle O'Connell: It was.

00:09:13:00 Mary McCaughey: For listeners who may not be familiar with the European Movement and its objectives, what would you see as its primary role?

00:09:38:14 Noelle O'Connell: The European Movement arose from the aftermath of the Second World War. It was founded by figures such as Alcide De Gasperi, Robert Schuman and Winston Churchill to bring the nations and peoples of Europe together in the interests of peace and cooperation. The idea was simple but profound: through greater unity, Europe could avoid repeating the horrors of the past. Across Europe, national councils were established to promote those values and foster public engagement with the European project. In Ireland, there has always been a strong group of people who believed that Ireland's place is at the heart of Europe. Not in a blindly enthusiastic way, but in the belief that Ireland can make a meaningful contribution to improving how Europe works for its citizens. That vision inspired me throughout my career.

00:10:32:08 Mary McCaughey: So, the role was partly about raising awareness and highlighting issues affecting Irish citizens, but also about increasing understanding of European affairs?

00:10:53:22 Noelle O'Connell: Absolutely. It was about acting as a conduit, an explainer and a facilitator. Bringing people together, creating spaces for discussion, healthy debate and dialogue. But it was also about amplifying Ireland's voice at European level and ensuring that Irish perspectives were heard and valued, while working constructively with other Member States, institutions, agencies, civil society organisations and stakeholders to improve outcomes for citizens.

00:11:31:28 Noelle O'Connell: One of the best examples of that was the Conference on the Future of Europe. I was honoured to be appointed by the Irish Government, through an open competition, as Ireland's national citizen representative. Working alongside citizen representatives from across Europe, I saw first-hand how citizen engagement models, including formats inspired by Ireland's Citizens' Assembly experience, could be successfully applied at European level. That remains one of the highlights of my career.

00:12:09:06 Noelle O'Connell: Interestingly, Brexit was another defining moment. Not because of the outcome itself, but because it reminded Irish people of the value of our EU membership. Public support for EU membership reached historic highs, and it reinforced the importance of investing in the relationship between Ireland and Europe. It also showed that, from a communications perspective, we can never afford to become complacent.

00:12:34:09 Noelle O'Connell: Ireland's relationship with Europe has evolved. I think it has become more mature and less deferential. Today, we are more confident about asserting ourselves, promoting our values and defending our interests within the European framework. And I don't see values and interests as being in conflict. I think they complement one another.

00:13:38:19 Mary McCaughey: Would you describe that as a maturity process for Ireland?

00:13:53:02 Noelle O'Connell: Yes, very much so. If you look at Ireland before joining the European Communities in 1973, we were economically peripheral and heavily dependent on our nearest neighbour. EU membership transformed that. Through access to the Single Market, increased foreign direct investment, expanded opportunities and important advances in areas such as women's rights, Ireland developed a new sense of confidence and possibility. Membership allowed us to see beyond our island status and participate as equals around the European table. Over time, that has generated a stronger sense of confidence in Ireland's ability to shape and influence European policy. I've seen that interest and ambition grow steadily throughout my career, and it's encouraging to see so many organisations now keen to engage more actively with European policymaking.

00:15:32:13 Mary McCaughey: Let me return briefly to Brexit. When you were involved in discussions around the referendum and engaging with campaigners, why do you think the UK experience differed so dramatically from Ireland's relationship with the EU?

00:15:58:09 Noelle O'Connell: There are several reasons. First, the accession stories were completely different. For Ireland, joining the European Communities was seen as an expression of confidence and a way of reducing economic dependence on the UK. Psychologically and politically, it was a very empowering step. For Britain, however, there was often a perception that membership involved giving something up. Ireland saw membership as a gain. Britain often framed it as a loss.

00:17:04:09 Noelle O'Connell: Ireland has experienced the benefits of membership very directly. Whether it's the Single Market, foreign investment, workers' protections, freedom of movement or broader economic development, people can point to tangible gains. We also have a national memory of engaging with Europe through referendums. By the time Brexit happened, Ireland had held nine EU-related referendums. That repeated engagement created an understanding of how Europe works and why these issues matter.

00:17:48:06 Noelle O'Connell: One thing that struck me during the Brexit campaign was the difficulty of countering decades of negative rhetoric about the EU in the space of a short referendum campaign. When you've had forty years of largely negative public discourse, it is very difficult to reverse that narrative in a matter of weeks. Sadly, that proved to be the case.

00:18:31:02 Noelle O'Connell: Ireland's experience demonstrates the value of ongoing engagement, conversation and dialogue. People need opportunities to ask questions, express concerns and participate in discussions. That engagement cannot begin only when a referendum arrives. It has to be continuous.

00:19:00:16 Mary McCaughey: And some people would say that, in Ireland, we occasionally went back to the electorate more than once to secure the desired answer.

00:19:06:08 Noelle O'Connell: Well, like any good exam, there can be a second attempt.

00:19:10:04 Noelle O'Connell: But seriously, those subsequent votes often reflected efforts to address the concerns people had raised. The EU is not perfect. It doesn't get everything right all the time. That's why initiatives such as the Conference on the Future of Europe are important. They create opportunities for dialogue, reflection and adjustment.

00:19:49:01 Mary McCaughey: And communication itself has changed significantly. We now have podcasts and many more opportunities to have conversations with people. Turning to another aspect of your career, you've worked closely with business organisations and bodies such as the National Economic and Social Council. Have you seen a shift in the way EU policymaking features in national policymaking in Ireland?

00:20:13:01 Noelle O'Connell: Absolutely. The shift has been very significant, even if it has sometimes happened quietly. When I joined European Movement Ireland, there was a tendency to blame Brussels whenever something unpopular happened, while taking credit nationally for successes. European policy was often viewed primarily through a compliance lens. The focus was on directives, deadlines and legal obligations.

00:21:23:03 Noelle O'Connell: Today, European considerations are increasingly integrated into policy discussions from the outset. Issues such as competitiveness, energy, housing, supply chains and the green and digital transitions cannot be discussed meaningfully without considering the European dimension. We are also seeing the influence of major European policy debates, including the Draghi and Letta reports. As a result, policymakers have developed a more sophisticated understanding of how Irish and European policy interact.

00:22:08:06 Noelle O'Connell: There is now a stronger desire not simply to comply with European policy but to help shape it. That is a very positive development. At the same time, however, I think there is a growing concern among some stakeholders that the EU risks becoming overly regulatory. That is a conversation we need to take seriously because it has implications for public support and engagement.

00:22:58:22 Mary McCaughey: So there is a more active and engaged approach now, rather than simply viewing Brussels as something external imposing regulation from above?

00:23:03:28 Noelle O'Connell: Exactly. And I think that's very important. There is still more to do, of course. One concern I increasingly encounter in discussions with stakeholders is a perception that the EU can become overly regulatory and overly complex. That risks undermining public support, and it is something we need to address carefully.

00:23:30:04 Mary McCaughey: Which, of course, links directly to the current debate about reducing unnecessary red tape while still ensuring that common European standards and regulations are implemented effectively. It's one of the areas where Eurofound has been active for many years, providing evidence-based research and analysis, particularly on social policy, employment and working life.

00:23:56:06 Mary McCaughey: That brings me to Eurofound's role. Given your experience across public policy, business and civil society, do you believe that organisations such as Eurofound, and indeed other EU agencies, are having the impact they should be having? And where, if anywhere, could we do better?

00:24:25:04 Noelle O'Connell: That sounds like a performance review.

00:25:00:18 Mary McCaughey: Exactly.

00:25:02:12 Noelle O'Connell: For me, the work agencies such as Eurofound do is absolutely fundamental. You provide the evidence, the data and the analysis that policymakers need in order to make informed decisions that improve people's lives. Ultimately, that is what the European Union is about: creating better outcomes for citizens. The work Eurofound does on living and working conditions sits at the heart of that mission.

00:26:11:17 Noelle O'Connell: Your research is excellent. Your communications work is also incredibly important because you successfully translate complex issues for different audiences, whether policymakers, researchers, stakeholders or ordinary citizens who want to understand the issues affecting their lives. In that respect, I think Eurofound performs exceptionally well.

00:26:39:04 Noelle O'Connell: If I were offering one suggestion, it would be this: Don't be afraid to talk more openly about the impact of your work. Sometimes organisations like Eurofound can be a little modest about their achievements. You shouldn't hide your light under a bushel.

00:27:03:24 Noelle O'Connell: I think there is room to be a little more assertive in communicating the value of your work and its influence on policymaking. That's not about changing the organisation's culture or becoming self-promotional. It's simply about making sure people understand the contribution being made.

00:27:35:18 Mary McCaughey: I think you're probably right. Historically, that hasn't necessarily been part of our culture. However, there have certainly been examples where Eurofound's work has directly influenced policy. For example, during the Irish Presidency in 2013, our analysis on youth unemployment and the economic cost of young people not being in employment, education or training contributed significantly to the development of the Youth Guarantee. That evidence was instrumental at a critical moment for Europe.

00:28:27:29 Mary McCaughey: Today, we're looking at issues such as the Quality Jobs Roadmap, housing and many other pressing challenges. In many respects, Eurofound is at the forefront of these discussions.

00:29:07:05 Noelle O'Connell: Absolutely. And in a world where work is becoming increasingly complex, where technological change is reshaping labour markets and where we face significant geopolitical uncertainty, organisations like Eurofound play an essential role. You provide trustworthy, evidence-based analysis at a time when reliable information is more important than ever.

00:29:38:04 Noelle O'Connell: At the same time, we are living in an era marked by misinformation, disinformation and growing political polarisation. Institutions that have earned a reputation for independence, rigour and credibility are incredibly valuable. Eurofound has built that reputation over many years.

00:30:05:07 Noelle O'Connell: One of the challenges moving forward is ensuring that technological developments, including artificial intelligence, enhance rather than undermine that reputation. The priority must remain maintaining high standards of research, integrity and trustworthiness.

00:30:40:03 Mary McCaughey: Which brings us quite naturally to the Irish Presidency. The Presidency's priorities include competitiveness, values and security. How do you assess Ireland's ability to make progress in these areas during its six-month term?

00:31:19:24 Mary McCaughey: And perhaps before we discuss the Presidency itself, let's talk about values. The term is used frequently in European debates, but what does it actually mean? If you stopped people on the street, could they explain what European values are?

00:31:52:11 Noelle O'Connell: Values can mean different things to different people. However, for me, they are closely connected to both Ireland's identity and the European Union's founding principles. They include respect for democracy, human rights, the rule of law, equality and the protection of citizens. Those values may be interpreted differently by different people, but they remain fundamental to the European project.

00:32:27:01 Noelle O'Connell: I think it's important that we continue to refer back to those foundations and ensure that they remain relevant and meaningful in today's Europe.

00:32:53:08 Noelle O'Connell: As for the Presidency, we need to be realistic. Success will largely be measured by progress on legislative files and negotiations. Many of those issues won't attract public attention, but they are the work that makes the European Union function.

00:33:18:00 Noelle O'Connell: Competitiveness will be central. The Single Market agenda, the Savings and Investment Union, cybersecurity legislation and negotiations around the Multiannual Financial Framework will all be significant priorities. The financial discussions alone are likely to be extremely challenging.

00:33:50:28 Noelle O'Connell: And all of this is taking place against a backdrop of geopolitical uncertainty. Every discussion is influenced by wider global developments, from security concerns to economic instability. That inevitably makes the Presidency's task more complex.

00:34:42:20 Noelle O'Connell: Security and defence will also require mature conversations in Ireland. We cannot avoid discussing our role and responsibilities as an EU Member State. That includes issues such as cybersecurity, critical infrastructure, undersea cables and broader questions about Europe's capacity to protect itself.

00:35:22:28 Noelle O'Connell: At the same time, Ireland has a proud tradition of peacekeeping and international cooperation. The challenge is finding a balanced approach that reflects both realities.

00:35:53:21 Mary McCaughey: Of course, discussions around defence often intersect with debates about neutrality, the Triple Lock and Ireland's wider role in Europe. These are sensitive issues that require public engagement.

00:36:17:16 Noelle O'Connell: They do. But I think we are beginning to see a more mature conversation emerge. People increasingly recognise the importance of security cooperation and understand that these discussions are not necessarily incompatible with Ireland's values or traditions.

00:37:05:16 Noelle O'Connell: Ireland also has credibility in these discussions because of our experience with peacebuilding, consensus-building and conflict resolution. Those strengths can make a valuable contribution at European level.

00:37:45:08 Noelle O'Connell: One challenge for the Presidency, however, will be managing expectations. There are very high hopes about what Ireland can achieve. The reality is that six months is a relatively short period in European policymaking. Success often involves creating momentum rather than completing every objective.

00:38:17:28 Noelle O'Connell: What has struck me compared with previous Presidencies is the level of engagement across Irish society. Businesses, NGOs, representative organisations and civil society groups all appear more interested and more invested in the Presidency than before. That's encouraging.

00:39:07:18 Noelle O'Connell: If we can use this period to create a lasting legacy of engagement with Europe, rather than treating it as a six-month event, then I would consider that a real success.

00:39:33:29 Mary McCaughey: You've almost answered my final question already. I was going to ask you to "talk me in three" and identify the main priorities arising from the Presidency. Perhaps we can make that a bit broader. Looking beyond the six months, what do you see as the key challenges facing the European Union over the coming years? We are living through a period of considerable geopolitical uncertainty. Climate change is becoming increasingly visible and impactful. We are seeing debates around migration, competitiveness, social cohesion and Europe's place in the world. What are the challenges that will shape the next generation of the European project?

00:40:01:20 Noelle O'Connell: It's a big question. The first thing I would say is that, in navigating all of these challenges, the European Union must remain true to its founding principles. We are operating in a world that is becoming increasingly volatile from a geopolitical, geostrategic and geo-economic perspective. We face challenges related to climate change, inequality, access to healthcare, fundamental rights and many other issues that continue to evolve rather than diminish.

00:41:26:20 Noelle O'Connell: In that context, I believe the European Union must continue to serve as a force that brings countries and people together. Despite the complexity of managing a Union of 27 Member States, and hopefully more in the future through enlargement, the EU must continue striving to improve people's lives and wellbeing. It also has an important role to play internationally. At a time when many parts of the world are experiencing increased division and polarisation, the European Union should continue to act as an example of cooperation, partnership and shared values.

00:42:16:11 Noelle O'Connell: At the same time, we must ensure that citizens feel part of that journey. People should not feel left behind or disconnected from decision-making. Clear communication, meaningful dialogue and genuine engagement with citizens are essential. Ultimately, the European Union belongs to its citizens, and everyone has a role to play in shaping its future.

00:42:42:26 Mary McCaughey: So, if I were to summarise, you are saying that Europe must continue taking active decisions that improve people's lives and working conditions, while ensuring that citizens understand both the process and the benefits of cooperation among Member States.

00:43:06:10 Noelle O'Connell: Exactly. And communication is central to that. People need to understand not only what decisions are being taken, but why they matter and how they affect everyday life. The challenge is not simply making policy, but bringing citizens along on that journey.

00:43:37:07 Mary McCaughey: Noelle, thank you very much for joining us today. It's been a wide-ranging discussion and I appreciate your willingness to reflect on Ireland's relationship with the European Union, the Irish Presidency and the broader challenges facing Europe.

00:44:21:14 Noelle O'Connell: Thank you, Mary. It's been a pleasure.

00:44:26:04 Mary McCaughey: And to our regular listeners, you can find Eurofound Talks on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and on the Eurofound website. You can also subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on our social media channels. I would encourage you to listen to some of our other recent episodes, including conversations with Tony Murphy, President of the European Court of Auditors, and Michael McGrath, European Commissioner.

00:45:03:14 Mary McCaughey: Many of the issues discussed today, including competitiveness, employment, housing, youth unemployment and gender equality, are areas where Eurofound continues to provide research and analysis. You can find more information on all of these topics on our website. Until next time, thank you for listening to Eurofound Talks.